« May you find the risen Christ in places unlooked-for | Main | Newbury Revisited »

Thursday, 19 April 2007

Comments

Andrew

Good stuff, Dean. I wish I could have said it so well!

Andrew

I've done a link to this blog at http://fizzogblog.typepad.com/held_/2007/04/creationism_dis.html

Andrew

'Every text has to be read with one eye on what it meant to the original hearers, and the other on how we might understand it today.' - I couldn't agree more with that statement however I disagree with most of the rest of what you have said.

I assume from your position that therefore Adam and Eve are not literal people and therefore the fall is not an actual event and original sin is a story. That God's judgment on the world in the flood never happened. If this is the case then why did Jesus need to come and die for our sins. Why did Jesus refer to Adam and call himself the last Adam? Christ Himself also referred to Noah as literal.

On what basis do you believe scripture if you believe 'and the motivation of the actors is sublimated to the theological interests of the narrator'. How does this then not apply to the rest of scripture?

The Bible is not straightforward in a simplistic sense and without the Holy Spirit bringing it to life would just be a dry read.

Do you believe the resurrection to be 'read as a story told to illustrate a set of theological truths rather than historical facts'?

I personally cannot see how a Theistic Evolutionary position can be supported by scripture? I am not saying to hold that view rules out a person from being a genuine believer, absolutely not, but it does undermine confidence in scripture!

Regards

Andrew

Andrew F

I'd like to point out that the three Andrews who have posted comments here are two different people! I've done the first two comments, but not the third. I'm the one who agrees with the blog author's approach. I don't agree with the last comment. I'm calling myself 'Andrew F' here to make the difference clear!

Mr Underhill

Good read.

As a scientist I approach this from a particular viewpoint. I went to a series of lessons at a fundamentalist church. They were a welcoming group of Christians. However, they used the 'scientific method' to attack science.

What do I mean?

Science does not deal with absolutes. It seeks to come up with the best theory that fits the facts as we understand them. This means that for any position there is likely to be others who disagree, or take a subtly different position. These teachers tried to use this to state that '... scientists do not agree on evolution ..'.

I find much religious fundamentalism deeply worrying. Recently I was on holiday in Abkhazia (Ex-USSR). In my hotel room was sat. TV! The only English channels were BBC news and a whole host(!) of US Religious channels, the latter were not edifying.

M

Dean Ayres

Dear Andrew (the author of the 3rd comment on this post),
Thank you for leaving a comment. I'll offer a response to the points you raise, recognising that we will agree to differ on this, but in the conviction that Christians have something in common that transcends the need to agree about how we understand our faith.

You end by saying 'I personally cannot see how a theistic evolutionary position can be supported by scripture'. Well, theistic evolution is a respectable theological position for Christians, even among evangelicals. Intelligent Design certainly falls into this category, even though it seems to me to push too much of God's activity into the domain of science.

But I wouldn't expect scripture to support evolution or any other scientific account of the origin of the universe directly; it isn't what the Biblical authors set out to do. They wanted to communicate their understanding of God and his relationship with the world. As I've argued, I believe this falls short of providing an account of how creation happened, as opposed to why.

I agree entirely with you that the Bible without the Spirit is just a dry read, but I'm also with Augustine of Hippo when he said "I refuse to believe that the same God who gave me sense, reason and intellect also expected me to forgo their use". I do believe in the Bible, but I suspect you and I mean different things by this. I believe that the Holy Spirit brings the Bible alive to us, and one of the ways it does that is via our intellect. The Bible is the work of human hands, however we understand God's inspiration to work, and we can use the resources of literary criticism to deepen our understanding of God.

Since God has created this rational world that is accessible to our intellect, that too is a source by which we learn about God. Part of our work is to see how that relates to scripture. I've offered a way of doing this that is theologically and intellectually credible. If you are really interested in trying to understand this tradition, reading a book like Kirsten Birkett's Unnatural Enemies would be a good place to start. It's written from a theologically conservative position, and so you might find it helpful.

Mr Underhill,
One of the classic critiques that creationists level at evolution is the charge that it isn't accepted by all scientists. That is strictly true, but disingenuous. The vast majority of scientists agree that evolution is the best account that we have. It puzzles me that creationists are so concerned to argue (in the face of a lot of scientific evidence to the contrary) that their theory is scientifically credible, rather than simply recognising that they hold the Bible as a source of authority that overrides science. The reason for their scientific defence is something I'll return to in a second article.

Helen

This is such an interesting debate raising many interesting questions. It is surprising that Christians are still arguing over whether the world was created in six days or not as that argument was lost in the Victorian days; I wonder if the literalists will go on to make a “world is flat” theme park next?
However I haven’t yet found a satisfactory theological explanation of the book of Genesis. It seems to me that the beginning of the bible begins with an explanation of why we are here, who made us and why we suffer and die. (Which is quite an astonishing first chapter of a book). If the events didn’t happen as described then the explanation given doesn’t make sense. If Adam, Eve and the garden of Eden didn’t exist then we have no Christian understanding of why we work hard, suffer and die. Also the understanding of Christ’s death as a sacrificial substitute doesn’t work.

Mr Underhill

Dear Dean,

'....That is strictly true, but disingenuous. ...'

Precisely.

I'll look forward to your next article, and your response to Helen's question.

M

Dean Ayres

Helen, the third comment above shows that the argument was far from won among Christians in the Victorian age. It was won among scientists, but the outstanding questions for Christians are to do with whether the Bible or nature has ultimate authority to speak about origins, and whether it is valid to read and interpret the Bible through the lens of the insights of science. This is partly what I'll try and address when I get round to writing the second article.

As for your question about how we read Genesis, that really needs a book to answer, not a blog post. But I've indicated the method in my reading of Genesis 1; come to an understanding of the theological truths the text is trying to convey through the story, rather than taking the story itself as a literal truth. My reading of Genesis 2 would be that our disobedience and quest for power and knowledge has disrupted our relationship with God, and Jesus' death and resurrection is God's way of healing that breach. There! In one sentence I've grossly oversimplified something that can be given nuance and theological rigour, but I hope it gives you a flavour of the way to go.

As for your suggestion that this way of reading Genesis invalidates the sacrificial substitution of Christ's death; it doesn't. But it does lead us to read the Bible to find other ways of understanding the atonement. One reading that I would thoroughly recommend is found in James Allison's Tablet Lecture.

Helen

Well done Dean- both intellectually respectable and Christian

The comments to this entry are closed.